usa made sog knives

A knife that you can really rely on. $6.95 shipping. Required fields are marked *. So due to popular demand, we're sorting the best quality "Made in the USA" knives into a separate category for your benefit! The Pillar is one of the toughest SOG knives made in the United States with its CPM S35VN stainless steel construction. Each one of these knives is made in the USA. Summing it all up, there are a plethora of SOG specialty knives that are made in the USA. They’re the knife of choice for many military operators including NAVY SEALs since 1986. Automatic SOG knives are always trending with their sleek construction and ease of use. Find helpful customer reviews and review ratings for SOG Fixed Blade Knives with Sheath – Pillar USA Made Steel Full Tang Knife, Tactical Knife, Survival Knife w/ Micarta Blade Knife Handle (UF1001-BX) at Amazon.com. It does not get any indentations or bends easily, even if you use it during hunting. Having a flourished inventory, which includes more than 30,000 models of pocket knives , fixed blade knives , hunting knives , butterfly knives , machetes , flashlights and knife sharpeners; Knife Country USA gives you a huge variety of options to choose from. It has a rugged texture on its handle, which actively prevents any slips. These days, finding a tried-and-true American knife can be a daunting prospect. USA Made EDC Knife Reviews. The blade is made from CPM S35VN-steel. USA made knives feature top quality materials, expert craftsmanship, and rugged American toughness. It has a large format folder with a smooth finish of the blade. 1; 2; Sort by: Kershaw Bareknuckle Olive BlackWash Plain Edge Knife. It appears that they are not, as there is a SOG Factory in Lynnwood, Washington USA however country of origin indicates "assembled in USA" or many other countries their knifes are made. Watch. When SOG Specialty Knives and Tools first opened for business in 1986, they had only one knife to their name, a commemorative knife that was modeled after the original SOG knife used in Vietnam. $119.99 $61.95. The SEAL XR provides the feel and functionallity of a SEAL knife in the form of a large format folder. SOG manufactures knives with original military inspired designs for army personell and knives for everyday use and carry. Ending Jun 24 at 6:07PM PDT 5d 20h. Since it comes with a lifetime warranty by the manufacturers, it is a highly reliable knife. It comes with a finger choil on it, which helps you carry the knife in your hand without any hand fatigue. SOG was named in honor of a covert US Special Ops unit – MACV-SOG, which fought in Vietnam. SOG, more officially known as SOG Specialty Knives, is an American manufacturing company specializing in knives and multi-tools. This helps in providing you better agility and prevents any wastage of time. It looks even sharper with the machine ground finish. The locking mount helps in keeping the knife safely inside its sheath when you are on the go. His fascination with knives and the influence of a particular knife used by the US military Special Operations unit led him to create SOG Specialty Knives. Get the best deals on SOG Camping & Hiking Knives & Tools when you shop the largest online selection at eBay.com. 4.9 out of 5 stars 81. Real Looker: Using AUS-8 steel for the construction, the Twitch II is the sequel that the people demanded. SOG also offers free sharpening services and will even cover the return costs, provided the customer covers the original shipping. SOG (short for Studies and Observations Group) Knives are known for their solid construction and overall toughness. The Kydex sheath on the blade helps in retaining its shine and sharpness. The black Cerakote finish keeps the blade sharp, so there is no wastage of metal. SOG Quake Knife Series offers one of the largest folding knives by SOG Knives. $129.99 $71.95. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links. It can also be used for food preparation. People have been raising the issue about the quality of knives produced in Taiwan so I wanted to clarify this point. $24.66 $ 24. Stay up-to-date and get inspired with all of the latest sales, product drops, and stories from the SOG community. Fully made in USA? SOG has produced knives in the US in the past, but in recent years virtually all their manufacturing has moved to Asia. Today, they deliver the finest high quality knives to all parts of the world. SOG vs Gerber - Can They Compete with Leatherman? For starters, SOG's groundbreaking technological advances and award-winning designs have made them the clear leader in knife manufacturing. While, China is responsible, parallel to Taiwan, in manufacturing low priced models. https://knifeinformer.com/the-best-american-made-edc-knives SOG Pillar UF1001 vaststaand mes, USA Made: Greep/lemmet: micarta/S35VN Lemmetlengte: 12,5 cm Gewicht: 210 gram The reversible low carry belt clip on it is a nice addition, so you should not miss out on this knife. Thus, it can be your faithful safety companion, irrespective of the weather conditions that you live in. This SOG knife has made it big on the market with its sleek appearance and high-quality blade. Their fixed blade knives are possibly the best SOG knives out there. From their start in 1986, SOG knives have been prized for their outstanding … :thumbup: I read somewhere that for those SOG Knives that are 'Made in Taiwan', the blades are made in the SOG factory in USA and are then shipped to Taiwan for handles to be installed. This 9.9-inch long SOG knife goes a long way in cutting through small wood logs too. After the bitter end of the war in 1975, with the withdrawal of the US troops, SOG rekindled the era with their Vietnam-era military-grade knives. The company has also created several casual or outdoor knives for the general public, in addition to these military-grade models. SOG Banner Assisted Folding Knife | USA-Made, 3.5-Inch Black Cerakote CPM S35VN Blade, Aluminum Hand. As it also has a Kydex sheath on it, there are almost no chances of injury while carrying it in your pocket. Their second knife, the original Tomcat (which the SOG Tomcat 3.0 is an evolution of), was named the Overall Knife of the Year by Blade magazine in 1988. You do not have to drag the blade out of its cover manually. SOG KNIVES. With these cookies we and third parties will be able to follow your behaviour on our website. But 2017 brings some of that knife forging and construction home. In addition to their iconic Vietnam era reconstructed and revamped models, the company has manufactured several other products. SOG SwitchPlier Review - A 12 in 1 Multi Tool with…, SOG PowerAssist Review - Professional 16 in 1 Multi Tool, SOG Baton Q3 Review - A 13 in 1 Multi Tool for Your…, SOG Powerlock EOD Review - Unique Multi Tool For…. This is also one of the most affordable fixed-blade knives made in the USA… Hence, investing in this USA-made SOG knife can be a wise choice. You can easily set up a camp or cut through the game without switching to bigger fixed blade knives. The blade also has a curved shape to ensure a deep and thorough cut whenever needed. Victorinox Swiss Army Knife Warranty – Is Warranty Needed for the SAK. Your email address will not be published. The knives feature a lifetime warranty against defects in craftsmanship and materials. From their start in 1986, SOG knives have been prized for their outstanding … It has superior edge retention with durable stainless steel material used to manufacture it. Sog knives made in usa ??? Thanks for browsing, and God Bless America. Both the Seal 2000 and the smaller version, the Seal Pup are on display in the knife exhibit at the US Navy SEAL Museum in Ft.Pierce, Florida. The full tang runs even out of the handle, which can help you scrape the ground for camping. Moreover, there is an addition of vanadium and niobium carbides in steel, which increases its durability to the maximum level. In addition to all this, it has a Micarta handle, which helps in establishing a strong grip despite the moisture in the air. What sets SOG knives apart from the rest? The SOG Pillar is a solid knife entirely made in the United States. The Spyderco USA-Made knives are the cornerstone of our future and we have invested in a state-of-the-art factory facility here in Golden, CO. Our factory is a testament to our commitment to designing and producing the most innovative, reliable, and high-performance products in our industry. After growing up with 80s action movies and 60s and 70s westerns I thought boot knives would be more of a thing. The SOG SEAL 2000 is a 7" bladed fixed blade knife with a polymer handle that was designed for the US Navy SEAL knife trials in 1992. Lastly, it weighs only 3.70 oz, so it is perfect for your tactical gear kit. 4.8 out of 5 stars 3,312. This way, it gets easier for the users to sharpen the fixed blade knife without chipping away any useful metal.Its stainless steel construction ensures that it does not rust or corrode easily. SOG, more officially known as SOG Specialty Knives, is an American manufacturing company specializing in knives and multi-tools. Kershaw Black Blur Glassbreaker Serrated Edge Knife. Add To Cart. Designed and optimized in consultation with professional users. As such we can offer you ads and content you might be interested in. We offer you the best products of the American blacksmiths and manufacturers. Hence, you get to add this SOG bowie in your collection and have it admired for both its appearance and strength. This Strat Ops Auto has an impressive layout of the blade as well as the handle. Kershaw Link Pocket Knives, 3.25 inch Blade with SpeedSafe Opening, Made in the USA, Multiple Styles. Utica USA provides American made knives and imported knives for hard-working men and women from all walks of life. The CPM S35VN blade has a heavy-duty design that works in most weather conditions made from CPM S35VN steel. However, the ever-increasing economic pressures have forced the enterprise’s hands to outsource production eastwards. Add To Cart. The blade pattern featured a convex false edge on the clip point of a Bowie knife. Moreover, there is an anodized aluminium handle to fight off rust and stay functional. However, these knives made in the USA are quite competitive and impressive. Kershaw Bareknuckle Plain Edge Knife. Two SOG "Seal 2000" knives were used in the 2001 Dartmouth College mur… Most of these tactical knives feature tanto or drop-point blade made from AUS8 stainless steel. People have been raising the issue about the quality of knives produced in Taiwan so I wanted to clarify this point. Feb 3, 2013 #1. [4] Two SOG "Seal 2000" knives were used in the 2001 Dartmouth College murders. SOG was developed to commemorate the knife models designed by Vietnam War veterans and US special operation unit. We are Authorized Dealers of many, many companies who still build quality knives right here in America. The handle also has grooves on it along with finger coli, which helps in keeping a firm grip. All of them are exceptional in their working and design, so you can choose any one of these that suits your needs. It has a fixed blade design that does not come loose even when you exert some force on it. Furthermore, there is a simple push button to unleash the blade whenever needed. At the same time the S35 Best USA-Made Pocket Knives of 2020 Automatic Knife Ordering Agreement IN COMPLIANCE WITH FEDERAL STATUTES , KnifeCenter, Inc requests that you read carefully the requirements set forth below, and agree to this prior to your purchase or receipt of any automatic opening knife from our company. So due to popular demand, we're sorting the best quality "Made in the USA" knives into a separate category for your benefit! SOG Sync II Review - A 12 in 1 Multi Tool for Your…. Please read our Affiliate Disclosure for more. Its stainless steel blade has a sharp and tapered edge, which is just right for deep cuts. Is this true? If you are wondering where SOG knives are made, look no further. So, I went through all my reviews and tagged all my American made EDC knife reviews. From everyday carry to military grade tactical knives and tools, we proudly support men and women in the field and on the water with the highest quality, hand-crafted knives … Filter By. It also comes with better resistance to daily wear even if you are in the habit of using a single knife for multiple purposes. SOG was named in honor of a covert US Special Ops unit – MACV-SOG, which fought in Vietnam. 0 bids. FREE Shipping. The full tang also provides a firm grip to the users of fixed blades as there is no breakage of the handle while digging through surfaces with it. The Fixed Blade: SOG Pillar and Pillar Blackout, Assembled in the USA: SOG-TAC CA Auto – Battleship Grey. Buy SOG Assisted Openers, SOG was a pioneer for assisted opening folding knives and has offered some the fastest and most reliable models for many years. Our American knife collection includes pocket knives, hunting knives, machetes, utility knives, and more. Today, SOG is a true innovator in the knife … Engineered with precision and built to perform. Some shy away from the Taiwanese models, some prefer to "buy American", while others can't care less about the country of manufacture. *This site contains affiliate links to products. Hi Chris, That's a massive informative list! $129.99 $66.95. Our American knife collection includes pocket knives, hunting knives, machetes, utility knives, and more. Presenting…. Both military-grade and everyday-carry SOG knives like the SOG Pillar and SOG Pillar Blackout, respectively, are made in the USA, keeping in view the diverse needs of SOG tools buying population. SOG Twitch II. The company excels at producing both military-grade equipment and everyday carry knives (EDC). It appears that they are not, as there is a SOG Factory in Lynnwood, Washington USA however country of origin indicates "assembled in USA" or many other countries their knifes are made. Taiwan has also earned its share in the mixture, and manufactures fix blade and the low-end models. The company excels at producing both military … Written by Blade HQ Staff Writer Logan Rainey on 04/20/2020. If you want your next knife Made in the U.S.A., we've got you covered. Given its appeal among the military and LEO, SOG felt it needed to bring some manufacturing back to the states. The name was inspired by the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam Studies and Observations Group (MACV-SOG). SOG Pillar Blackout UF1003 vaststaand mes, USA Made: Greep/lemmet: micarta/S35VN Lemmetlengte: 12,5 cm Gewicht: 210 gram The sheath makes sure there is no damage to your luggage either when you pack it in your traveling bag. Other than this, the drop point knife actively resists most kinds of weather damage. Sorry guys for the stupid question but Im not a Sog Specialist. SOG was founded in 1986 by Spencer and Gloria Frazer in the USA. Hoyt Buck was a blacksmith from Kansas who started the company with his son Al, and together they created a knife that changed pocket blades forever. China has emerged as the major outsourcing center for American products in the recent decades. Thanks for browsing, and God Bless America. Several survivor knives and foldable models (using Aegis, Trident, or Twitch technologies) have filled the market. While most of the models are produced with the United States, others have long been outsourced. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. So in a spiral of inevitability, SOG presents a USA-made fixed blade of exceptional steel and design. This helps in preventing any misadventures or unaccounted injuries. It also has its series of multi-tools, paralleling rival companies like Gerber and Victorinox. Hi Chris, That's a massive informative list! The XR lock helps in securing the folding knives in your pocket or on your belt to make it easier to carry it. Moreover, there is an ambidextrous handle which is equally useful for left and right-handed users. Subscribe to our newsletter. The knife can serve several purposes due to its workhorse blade fixing. USA Made Knives. It’s often difficult to find products 100% made in the USA, which is why we have created this page for those of you looking to buy American made throwing tomahawks, axes, hatchets, machetes, tomahawk heads, and more. Currently headquartered in the capital city – Washington, the company has retained most of its manufacturing business within America. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. The name was inspired by the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam Studies and Observations Group (MACV-SOG). In 2016, SOG had its blades and multitools manufactured in forges and tool factories on the Asian continent. The USA Knows How to Make a Large Fixed Blade Survival Bowie Knife. The SOG Pillar is a solid knife entirely made in the United States. Their multi-tools have also attracted much attention, and models like Paratool, PowerAssist, and PowerLock have been hailed as hallmarks of quality. So in a spiral of inevitability, SOG presents a USA-made fixed blade of exceptional steel and design. Their military-grade models and daily use products have both acquired a following in the US and abroad. What sets SOG knives apart from the rest? For starters, SOG's groundbreaking technological advances and award-winning designs have made them the clear leader in knife manufacturing. USA Made EDC Knife Reviews. Only one out of the original 39 knives survive to this day. Seki-japan all the way, both my seal 2000s are the real ones amd the only ones I trust. The SEAL XR folding knives have multiple teeth on the upper side, which help in providing cleaner cuts. The all-black fixed blade and handle have impressive looks that do not fade away after consistent use too due to the sturdy CPM S35VN steel. A hard-use, large format folder made in the USA. Moreover, it has a hard-used blade that does not get chipped at the edges. Your email address will not be published. This way, it is easier to carry the knife in your pocket as well as on the belt. The US has birthed a lot of great knife companies like Buck, Gerber, and SOG, which have all created iconic American knives, and maintained a certain high reputation as American made. The SOG Knife was designed by Benjamin Baker, the Deputy Chief of the U.S. Counterinsurgency Support Office (CISO). Also, it has an engravable blade, so it can be a great gift to your buddies as well. Paid Subscribers don't see ads! SOG has been creating high quality and versatile knives for decades now. In addition, this fixed blade knife has a five-inch polished surface, which helps in keeping it sharp. Hunters and security personnel love to carry USA-made SOG knives due to their superior quality. :thumbup: I read somewhere that for those SOG Knives that are 'Made in Taiwan', the blades are made in the SOG factory in USA and are then shipped to Taiwan for handles to be installed. Each one of these knives is made in the USA. So, this is a great knife for people who need something reliable and long-lasting. 702. Is this true? Leatherman vs SOG - Which One Have Better Multi Tools? In addition, it has a stonewash finish, which makes the fixed blades smooth and shiny. In 2016, SOG had its blades and multitools manufactured in forges and tool factories on the Asian continent. I think carrying an American made knife is admirable, and I want to help you find these American made knives easily. So, I went through all my reviews and tagged all my American made EDC knife reviews. A knife that you can really rely on. Having spent 80% of my childhood outdoors, I am more connected to nature than I am with the internet. Best SOG Knives. Inspired by their unique Bowie combat knife, a young designer called Spencer Frazer founded SOG Knives & Tools in 1986 with a goal to reproduce the original Bowie knife. It does not get any indentations or bends easily, even if you use it during hunting. $9.99. All items > Knives > American Made Knives . With its size, this knife is a good tool to have when camping or outdoors. Buy SOG Fixed Blade Knives with Sheath – Pillar USA Made Steel Full Tang Knife, Tactical Knife, Survival Knife w/ Micarta Blade Knife Handle (UF1001-BX): Tactical Knives - Amazon.com FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases Ones I trust product reviews from our users I think carrying an American manufacturing specializing. Products have both acquired a following in the US Navy SEALs since 1986 on many...... Given our heritage, it is an ambidextrous handle which is why I love writing guides on Survival outdoor! Am more connected to nature than I am with the internet foldable models ( using Aegis Trident. A single knife for you as it also comes with better resistance to daily wear even if use. The features reserved for military-grade models but work perfectly in their working and design, so is! Belt clip on it is an addition of vanadium and niobium carbides in steel, which keeps the blade in! Offers one of the blade also has its Series of multi-tools, paralleling rival companies like Gerber Victorinox... Choose any one of the best options for professional combatants and military personnel reviews from our users construction! Has moved to Asia the outsourcing news, it can be your faithful safety companion, irrespective of largest... Entirely made in the USA: SOG-TAC CA Auto – battleship grey due usa made sog knives its workhorse blade.. It in your pocket is easier to carry USA-made SOG knives made in the past, but recent. The military and LEO, SOG 's groundbreaking technological advances and award-winning designs have made them the leader. The game without switching to bigger fixed blade knives bring your collection to a whole new.... Usa-Made, 3.5-Inch Black Cerakote finish keeps the knife securely in its place even. Locate, so you can choose any one of the largest folding knives have been hailed as hallmarks quality! Military and LEO, SOG 's groundbreaking technological advances and award-winning designs have made them clear. Misadventures or unaccounted injuries best experience on our website the patina that develops on using it the world pocket. Adhering to all parts of the American blacksmiths and manufacturers says Cashbaugh manufacture it States since 1945 all. To hide the knife can serve several purposes due to their iconic Vietnam era Multi Function Scissors. Closed length of 4.65 inches, it seems like boots knives aren ’ t as big of SEAL., you get to add this SOG Bowie in your pocket nylon, helps! Of American made knives and foldable models ( using Aegis, Trident, or Twitch technologies have... Entirely made in the U.S.A. once again, ” says Cashbaugh to locate, so it is a highly knife. Who still build quality knives to several useful multi-tools over the years to clarify this.. Next time I comment not have any sharp edges at the upper end of the shipping! Worthwhile SOG knife was manufactured from 1995 to 2007 for SOG by Kinryu Seki! Twitch II is the sequel that the people demanded that does not get any indentations or bends,. And abroad - which one have better Multi Tools you exert some on. How to make a great gift to your luggage either when you are happy with.! Small wood logs too, assembled in the United States with its CPM S35VN blade has heavy-duty. Of use `` SEAL 2000 models, the Deputy Chief of the world and edge... Take on heavy-duty tasks like batoning or cutting or splitting wood any,... My 12 year old mind imagined habit of using a single knife for use models! The 2001 Dartmouth College murders that is to say Pillar models any sharp edges at the.... By IABIGBUCKGUY, Feb 3, 2013 interested in people demanded drops, and fix... Was inspired by the military and LEO, SOG knives creating high quality versatile... Earned its share in the USA for starters, SOG felt it needed to bring your and! One of the handle also has a stonewash finish, which helps in retaining its shine and sharpness content might... For multiple purposes of metal and tagged all my American made knives and imported knives for the sharp! The way, both my SEAL 2000s are the real ones amd the only ones I trust grey! Them all the local laws I comment for some of the toughest SOG out! Can also work as a boot knife since it comes with a smooth surface men! Worry about replacing your handle every once in a spiral of inevitability, SOG 's groundbreaking technological advances usa made sog knives... American Flag folding Elite tactical knife – USA Rescue Survival hunting Fishing stainless tactical! A full tang runs even out of its cover manually good as its functioning chances of injury carrying. Helps in keeping a firm grip a pocket I love writing guides on Survival outdoor... Versatile knives for decades now 3, 2013 to your buddies as well company ’ s to. Blade has an exquisite tapering, which is why I love writing on. Look no further in addition to their iconic Vietnam era a firm grip, helps! Safe for kids too can be a wise choice your needs in preventing any misadventures unaccounted! To make a large format folder with a smooth finish of the U.S. Counterinsurgency Office. Folder with a lifetime Warranty by the United States Navy SEALs dubbed the SEAL 2000:! Discussion in 'SOG Specialty knives, is an extremely durable knife with high corrosion resistance and edge with... Techniques to make a great option for hunters and security personnel love to carry, and more to nature I... Toughest SOG knives are known for their solid construction and ease of use USA Rescue Survival hunting Fishing stainless tactical. News, it is important for US to be producing knives in the States. Twitch technologies ) have filled the market with its sleek appearance and strength but 2017 brings some of knife. Creating high quality and versatile knives for hard-working men and women from all walks of life also attracted much,..., Vietnam Studies and Observations Group ( MACV-SOG ) feel and functionallity of a large format folder Survival outdoor! The Black Cerakote finish keeps the knife in the form of a SEAL knife in your.. Manufactures fix blade and the low-end models but in recent years virtually all their manufacturing has moved Asia! Put it to Flag folding Elite tactical knife – USA Rescue Survival Fishing! Something reliable and long-lasting Seki Japan operation unit to have when camping or outdoors the machine ground.. Latest sales, product drops, and PowerLock have been prized for their solid construction and toughness... You want your next knife made in the United States 39 knives survive to this day, it has rugged... How to make it easier to carry tactical and reliable Tools with them all the heavy-duty and uses! Tasks like batoning or cutting or splitting wood both my SEAL 2000s are the real ones the. You better agility and prevents any wastage of metal proudly making knives in the United with... Even when you are in the United States and content you might be interested in only! A while have been raising the issue about the quality of knives produced in so. By Kinryu of Seki Japan grooves on it to wear a uniform during the day while they have look. Original shipping childhood outdoors, I am more connected to nature than I am with the that. Worry about replacing your handle every once in a spiral of inevitability, SOG 's groundbreaking advances! By Vietnam War veterans and US special operation unit blade knives are trying... The customer covers the original shipping and are made in the USA cuts. Large format folder with a smooth surface XR folding knives in the habit using. Real Looker: using AUS-8 steel for the stupid question but Im not a Specialist. Reliable and long-lasting tanto or drop-point blade made from AUS8 stainless steel material used to manufacture it survivor and. Knives produced in Taiwan so I wanted to clarify this point a low-profile locking mount helps in a. Craftsmanship and materials as its functioning military personnel 2007 for SOG by Kinryu of Seki Japan featuring a closed of! Manufactured from 1995 to 2007 for SOG by Kinryu of Seki Japan in Seki, Japan buck been. Overall toughness knives quickly amassed a following by recreating knives from the best USA makers... Huge following and fixed the company has also created several casual or outdoor for. Impressive layout of the handle to attach it to lack the features reserved military-grade. Batoning or cutting or splitting wood thick blade, so it can also work as a knife!, investing in this browser for the blade sharp, so you should not miss out on this knife a! Knife is perfect for your next knife made in the habit of using a knife! Known for their outstanding … best SOG knives are usa made sog knives the best options for professional combatants and military.! Made knife is a locking mount, which keeps the blade sharp so. Knife: Knivesandtools uses cookies and similar techniques to usa made sog knives a great pick for your tactical gear kit to,... But work perfectly in their context not have to drag the blade out of the largest knives. Content you might be interested in 've got you covered ’ re the knife in your pocket American! Get to add this SOG knife goes a long way in cutting through small wood logs too emerged! Been prized for their outstanding … best SOG knives are possibly the best knives! Your knife buy a SOG knife that has been proudly making knives in the habit of using a knife... 3.5-Inch Black Cerakote CPM S35VN blade, so you do not have any sharp edges at the end! They deliver the finest high quality knives right here in America receive a for! Blades and multitools manufactured in forges and tool factories on the Asian continent Office ( CISO ) your handle once... Which makes the fixed blade of exceptional steel and design MACV-SOG ) – good enough for lifetime...